Ep. 17 - Understanding Emotional Abuse, Navigating Toxic Relationships, and Finding Support with Karly Latham

In this compelling episode of the Blissfully Bold Podcast, host Gavie Remaly and guest Karly Latham, an emotional abuse advocate and host of the What Lies Buried Podcast, dig into a few forms of emotional abuse that aren’t always so easy to recognize.

Karly shares her personal experiences and provides insights into recognizing and addressing emotional abuse within relationships. This engaging conversation aims to raise awareness and provide valuable resources for listeners facing similar situations, all while promoting the importance of setting healthy boundaries and fostering open communication in relationships.

0:00 Understanding Emotional Abuse
1:41 Support the Show: Buy Me a Coffee
2:19 Introducing Guest: Karly Latham
4:58 The Impact of Media on Abuse Awareness: Talking "Maid" on Netflix
10:28 Understanding Love Bombing and its Complexity
23:50 Sexual Coercion and Boundaries
40:41 The Importance of Communication in Relationships
45:35 Resources and Support for Abuse Victims
54:46 Karly's Podcast: What Lies Buried
1:00:13 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Connect with Karly

• Read her Medium articles: https://karly-latham.medium.com/
• Listen to her Podcast "What Lies Buried Podcast":https://tr.ee/29cDspq_Td
• Follow on Instagram @karly.latham: https://www.instagram.com/karly.latham

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Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Emotional Abuse
• 1:41 Support the Show: Buy Me a Coffee
• 2:19 Introducing Guest: Karly Latham
• 4:58 The Impact of Media on Abuse Awareness: Talking "Maid" on Netflix
• 10:28 Understanding Love Bombing and its Complexity
• 23:50 Sexual Coercion and Boundaries
• 40:41 The Importance of Communication in Relationships
• 45:35 Resources and Support for Abuse Victims
• 54:46 Karly's Podcast: What Lies Buried
• 1:00:13 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

  That's what I thought emotional abuse was. I thought it was being yelled at. I thought it was name calling. And that happens, definitely. Like, that, I don't mean to say that that doesn't happen. But there are so many different ways that emotional abuse can, uh, occur. Manipulation, gaslighting, love bombing at the beginning of a relationship.

And it's hard to spot those things because You're in that honeymoon phase where maybe something will pop up you go. Mm hmm. I don't quite know about that But pushing boundaries, you know sexual coercion things like that Those are less talked about forms of emotional abuse that are just as real and just as dangerous 

Hi, my name is Gavie Remaly and I'm your boundary advocate to lead you to a more peaceful life.

Four years ago, I was stuck in a deep depression, a fog covered lake in the dead of night with no idea of where to turn to get back to me or my own needs. After seeking professional guidance to lead me out of the darkness, advocating for myself, my boundaries and my overall well being has become a daily practice of self care. 

Here on the Blissfully Bold podcast, We'll chat about balancing life's chaos within ourselves and in everyday spaces, pumping the brakes on people pleasing and understanding our personal needs to create the peace and happiness we so crave and deserve. Join me every Wednesday for a new episode and dare to be blissfully bold.

Welcome to the Blissfully Bold podcast.  Hey friend, you're back. I appreciate you coming back every week. If you are loving the show, please go and show support by rating, leaving a review, and sharing with a friend. And now there is a new way that you can support the show. You can bookmark it. Buy me a coffee.

It's similar to Patreon in that it helps fund creator efforts to continue bringing value to you. You know that means releasing this show every week. So it would mean so much to me if you could go and visit my page  and buy me a coffee. Visit buymeacoffee.  com forward slash blissfullyboldpodcast.  This week on the podcast, we have Karly Latham.

She is an emotional abuse advocate and the podcast host of the What Lies Buried podcast. And she works with emotional abuse victims, helping them feel seen and heard and Um, just speaking her experiences that she has had in her own past relationships and she brings up such good like food for thought  conversations  on  Because I think that a lot of the things that we're going to talk about in this episode like love bombing or sexual coercion and just communicating with your partner and developing that healthy relationship that a lot of the, the ideas that we talk about, it's like,  we don't see it as emotional abuse because, you know,  They are so quote unquote common type things, like especially in sexual coercion, like I never thought about it for myself that that's what it was that I've experienced in the past.

And. I, yeah, really, that's what brought, that's what brought this conversation here and I just feel like there has to be so much more awareness around domestic violence and so that is why for the month of October, I am actually doing an entire series on relationships and bringing more awareness to domestic violence and domestic violence.

Creating those healthy boundaries for relationships. All right, so Without further ado Here is carly. Hi carly. Welcome to the blissfully bold podcast and thank you so much for joining me today I like to kick off every episode with asking the guest uh, what is their superpower and what makes them kick ass and in your instance, it's advocating for survivors of abuse  

Yes, that's me.

Uh, yeah, I actually, I, I really love being in that position. Um, I'm someone that has always talked a lot about trauma, about what it takes to heal from trauma. Mm-Hmm. . But, um,  uh, highlighting emotional abuse and the way that it affects people really is kind of, it, it feels very empowering to me.  

Yeah. So  in our DMS recently, I had asked you if you had watched the show made, it's like a mini series on Netflix and you had said that you hadn't, and I was actually really surprised because it's like right up your alley in regard to like advocating for abuse, and I think that what made that show like so impactful and powerful, first of all, I have to say, I started watching it  on maternity leave.

I had just had my son, I think maybe one to two weeks.  So it was like newborn, newborn phase, you know, and I'm like nursing and I'm just on the couch all day  and I started watching  Made and  I don't even know if I got through the entire first episode. Maybe I got to the end. But I,  I could not watch the rest of the show for  probably a month or two and then I read it.

Yeah. So much sense to me. No, I, because I actually think that I did, because after we talked I was like, why haven't I watched this? So I pulled it up and I have a memory of looking at it, looking at the description and being like, Maybe now's not the best time and then I kind of just forgot about it.  Yes, it was 

so like,  like me taking a breath, like that is exactly how I felt like when I was watching it but like even more intense because now I've had time to process it, right?

And even like I myself, I don't feel like I have been a victim of  intentional emotional abuse, you know, where it's calculated and they are looking for someone who is a little bit more vulnerable and even in like not having experienced that, like watching the show, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so like,  like you just felt for her so deeply.

And I just thought it painted this really.  Accurate picture and I say accurate because even though I haven't Personally experienced like intentional abuse in that way. Like I have been close to others Yeah, you have and I have seen it from an outside perspective and it is  really fucking scary um, and so I just  I think it paints a good picture of the not so obvious warning signs of abuse, because I think that a lot of people can say, like she did in the show, Oh, I'm not abused.

Yes. 

Like, he never hit me, or he never, you know, did XYZ, that is, you know, the typical portrayal of abuse, but I feel like Emotional abuse can be sneaky.  

It can be that's what makes it so Hard to recognize especially when you're in the moment And I actually used to say that same thing myself like I can remember and I wouldn't even say argument because I was always so passive that like there was never really any arguments, but like I can remember a discussion  and I I must have brought up kind of the way that he behaves or like the You The simmering anger that was constantly in the house and being told like, well, I never hit you, did I?

And so like, I  didn't put the pieces together until well past, like the relationship ending, like it's been a while now, like there's still some things that are dragging out, but like, it took a really long time and a lot of healing for me to look back and be like, Oh,  that was abuse. I've been talking about these things all this time, but that is something that I experienced.

And I think the tricky thing with emotional abuse is that  typically in the media, uh, unlike in the maid, but typically the portrayals that you'll see is like a drunk, usually like a drunk white trash man and a wife beater. And he's screaming at his wife. At his wife and she's like cowering in the corner.

And that's what I thought emotional abuse was. I thought it was being yelled at. I thought it was name calling and that happens definitely. Like that. I don't mean to say that that doesn't happen, but there are so many different ways that emotional abuse can, uh, occur manipulation, gaslighting, love bombing at the beginning of the relationship.

And it's hard to spot those things because. You're in that honeymoon phase where maybe something will pop up you go. Mm hmm. I don't quite know about that But pushing boundaries, you know sexual coercion things like that Those are less talked about forms of emotional abuse that are just as real and just as dangerous So if you've just met someone and it's going great, they're showering you with attention They're showering you with gifts and then they suddenly You  Stop  that's gaslighting and it can be experienced even later on in the relationship It doesn't have to be right at the beginning um, but emotional abuse is much more subtle and Difficult to recognize because there are no there are no obvious bruises, you know, um, Physical abuse is also awful and should never happen But it's a lot harder to explain to people or to even know that you're being abused yourself when most of it is mental  

Right.

And so you did mention love bombing. I feel that the topic of love bombing has become more known. Like people, when people say love bombing,  I think a good majority of people will be like, Oh, like, yeah, I have an idea of what that is. Like, can you dig into it a little bit deeper? And can people?  love bomb unintentionally like like that their Goal is not to like make you feel like you're super loved so that they can trap you like they're not that mentality but thinking of like  You know, like, oh, I just want to show you love so you don't leave.

Like, you know, it does feel like it comes from a place of love for, for them. And even though it doesn't, maybe, actually, it isn't actually that. So can you, like, kind of dig into, I guess, the complexity of love bombing? 

Absolutely. I would love to. And I'm actually really glad that you asked that question, because a lot of the topics that I cover on, in my articles or on my posts, I have people messaging me and saying that it's really uncomfortable because it made me wonder if I was, if I was the abuser in this or like, am I portraying that?

With love bombing specifically, I think that it's important to  look at your intent. And I say that slightly hesitantly because  Abusers will twist that. But like if you are looking at your Actions and wondering was I love bombing someone? I think that the thing that you want to ask yourself is were you genuinely showing love and affection? 

Because if it's like, well, I want to love you extra so you don't leave me, that can be your own insecurity. But the real point of love bombing is to trap you in that situation. So if you are feeling disconnected from your partner and you want to show them a nice gesture, you send them  I don't know. Send them a gift just because, or, Hey, I'm thinking about you or writing them a letter and just telling them how much you love them or something like that, that's not love bombing.

That is, you were feeling the distance and you were take making an effort to, um, to reconnect. You know what I mean? But with love bombing,  the idea of it is to, it's almost like, Looking at it like an addiction and I I used to really hate this terminology but um with an addiction it's having a need for that feeling right so love bombing Um is a part of the cycle of abuse where there's a lot of attention and things feel really good So that when they stop and you start to see some of the more  obvious signs of abuse so like you have like you have a love bombing phase and then  One day they come home and they're Just in a bad mood, right?

And you're like, oh no things were great the other day How do I get back to that good phase? It keeps you Trying to  keep the peace or trying to get back to the place where you were receiving love and affection. So that means that you are willing to tolerate unacceptable behaviors because you know that they can be loving.

They can be generous and things like that. Um,  But it, it kind of, 

it breaks you down. And so if you are just extending a gesture of affection for your partner, that is not, that is not love bombing. But the other part of love bombing is that since it does happen in a cycle, um,  You can be at the point where you are ready to end the relationship and love bombing comes back into play.

And it'll look, in the moment, it'll look and feel like this person is genuinely making an effort to save the relationship. But if it is, Genuine those those patterns won't repeat themselves. So like that's another distinction that you could look at um, if you're wondering if it's you if you are if you've had some distance between you and your Partner and you're looking to reconnect both of you are putting in the effort and it's You're moving forward.

You're not moving backwards, but with love bombing it is intended to keep you trapped in the cycle of abuse  

Right, and so you're talking about a cycle of abuse and I know in this instance you're talking about it within  The relationship that you're in right now, like right like you're talking to someone one on one It's like talking about their relationship, right?

But when you think about like the cycle of abuse  like More often than not, like, the abuser is probably a product of growing up in a form of an abusive household, right? And so how can, I guess, how can people begin to change their patterns when they don't?  Know any better yet, right? Right, you know, they they don't like they don't see love bombing as something intentional or malicious that they're doing it's just like oh like I fucked up and I I have to be like really good now and like and then eventually the old patterns kind of slip into what they are and it's not like  Oh, i'm gonna i'm gonna buy her a bunch of flowers and i'm gonna be like a super Big kiss ass so she'll stay and it's more of like, oh, no I actually really love her and I don't want her to leave like how do I make her say almost like this frantic panic state? 

it really is that kind of is the part of it and To be fair. I don't know that everybody who's practicing love bombing knows it which is again Why you look at the broader scope and not just like that that one moment um But the the way that we are raised makes a big difference for both the victims and the abusers themselves because 

a 

lot of abusers will grow up in a household where that kind of behavior is just, that's just how it is.

They're following the patterns that they have seen laid out so to them that is what a normal healthy relationship looks like because that's all they've ever known. Um, that's not the case for every abuser though.  Plenty, plenty, plenty, plenty of stories of people who come from these fantastic family backgrounds, and they are just terrible, you know?

Right. Um,  and for the victims, the way that they have been raised or their previous experiences will also play a big role, because if you have a pattern in your life of feeling unloved, of feeling unrecognized, or Um, and I think it's important to recognize that if you're not used to a certain level of mistreatment, it'll be much harder to recognize that what your partner is doing is actually abusive, because it is normalized behavior on both sides of the spectrum. 

My advice is and as far as recognition for both the abuser and the victim is the same and it's education  You have to know what it is and you have to kind of learn to recognize those patterns before you're able to stop it So if you are a victim caught in the abuse cycle, but you don't know what it is How are you gonna work your way out of it?

You know, um, and if you are A person who is concerned that you are exhibiting love bombing, or if you have been the love bomber in the past and you want to work on that number one therapy for both sides, also therapy, therapy is your friend. Um, but really learning about what it looks like, because it's not always a dozen roses or things like that, like expensive gifts, you know, um, but  It can look like that, but education and taking the time to study about these things is the biggest thing that will help change, and therapy. 

Right, and I think that being able to  recognize patterns within your relationship, right? Like, Think about the last time y'all had some big fallout and what was the behavior and then, you know, Just kind of going from there and then you can kind of link it back and like start to recognize Those things and it's like an aha moment of like a light bulb  Like oh, yeah, like maybe this isn't  

Like what it should be.

Maybe this isn't super healthy. Yeah, it is you have to you kind of have to see the pattern and an important thing to note is that You Genuine apologies or someone who is like someone who has seen how their behaviors are hurting you If they are genuine That behavior stops And like it can be something that they were unaware of how deeply they were hurting you But once you have expressed it once they're aware if they keep doing it It is abusive. 

It's not it's that pattern won't stop and that is kind of one of the important things to Look at if you're learning things like  if they have a pattern of continually lying, you know, like We've talked about this thing so many times. Why do you keep lying about it? That's a red flag  versus it it's a red flag and it goes with the the pattern recognition, but um  The more you can kind of take a look  at your relationship and break it down.

Um, if you're still with the person  and they are not abusive, then you're growing together. But an abusive person really won't change their behavior. There is no  they would have to put in a lot of Time and therapy and most abusers just are not willing to do that.  

Right? Yeah, because  Going through therapy sometimes really really hurts  And like you don't like and this is coming from someone who hasn't actually like seeing Seen an actual therapist because I just I've always ran into red tape like with Insurance and wait lists and things like that.

And so I have like  sought out like self therapy or even like life coaches and things like that And still those are forms of therapy and they do like act as a mirror And make you like see the things that you don't want to see right? And so it's the same thing like if you're in a relationship from what you're saying Is that you know you have reflected this back onto your partner like hey, you are doing these patterns You This isn't okay.

And you know, if they actually. Do value like you and not being an abuser then, you know, they make the effort to change. 

Yes, they will change um And real abusers if they're not interested in changing because the way that the dynamic works The power dynamic already favors them Why would they want to change that because they like the way that things are set up.

They like being in control They like having that Level of authority over you, so they will not change. There's no, there's no, I have been in the position where I've been like, well, but Maybe, maybe he will change, because I know that things, I know that he can be nice. I see the way he treats other people, so if he can be like that for them, he can be like that for me.

But  at the end of the line, it's not true. They will not change.  And I say that because I think it's important to hear that. I'm not the only voice out there. Who, who portrays that, but  yeah, they, they are not going to change. They do not want to do the hard work that comes with therapy or shadow work or working with a life coach or doing any of those things that really breaks down your unhealthy patterns, because we all have them, like we all have our toxic traits, um,  but they, they don't want, they don't see anything wrong with them.

They like the way that things are. They like the way that the world works for them. So they're not going to change. They're not going to put in the work. Um, And therapy is hard and it also is To to go back to what you're saying therapy is a luxury. I couldn't afford therapy for a long time. I I use better help now so I could schedule online and I could text my therapist.

Um, And so that works for me, but it's also expensive and it's not something that i'll be able to afford long term um, so most of my Healing journey was done You On my own through shadow work through journaling through looking at my life kind of um breaking Breaking it down into pieces and then being like, okay I recognize the pattern here.

I see what's happening And kind of working my way through it. So  Building myself up has mostly been a solo journey um, but my therapist has been An incredible resource and has gotten me through some really really tough times  

That's amazing. I love to hear that.  Um,  so we talked about love bombing and another  topic that I feel like is really common And actually like touched a nerve for me When I read your post Was about coercion.

Yes, and it's like  I I feel that people maybe when they hear coercion, it's like that someone is trying to maliciously like Kind of lure you and like seduce you right right like that's the idea I think that would be the big idea of what coercion is but sometimes it doesn't even look like that because I know i've I've been the person i've known lots of people and it's often a joke in mom communities where it's like Oh, I didn't want to have sex tonight.

So I said I had a headache or you know, whatever it is and it's like you're Doing it because it's your wifely duty or when you're in the dating scene It's because you want you know the guy that you're Seeing to like you and he doesn't want to wait for sex or he doesn't want to like You know wait to be intimate or anything like that.

And so it makes you feel like you're a prude or something like that so how do you like  I guess set boundaries for yourself to be like You more steadfast and knowing that it's okay to like not have to cater to the other person who wants you to be physical when you're not actually like ready to be.

Yes. Yes. This is a huge one and again, this is something that I did not know about. I mean, I say that, a co surrogate actually called it for what it was when I was freshly married, I had a new baby, and I just, you know, I could not comprehend it, like,  looking back, I can remember being confused,  like, reading her text messages and being like, that's not happening to me, but it was happening to me.

And the thing about  sexual coercion is that it's, it is a refusal to say no. And  when you're setting boundaries,  you want to be very clear.  both with yourself and with your partner on what you are okay with and what you are not okay with. Because being in a committed romantic relationship, um, sexual coercion can happen outside of that, but in the term, in the For this conversation, um, being in a committed romantic relationship does not obligate you to have sex.

So if someone, if you have said no, for whatever reason, even if it really is that you have a headache or if kids have been touching you all day long and you cannot stand to have another set of hands on your body, it doesn't matter what your reason is, if you have said no, and they are still pushing you or they're moping or they're.

heavily sighing or they're getting mad at you for not wanting to have sex with them, that is coercion.  Or if you are,  if you have said, I am open to x, y, z, but this is off limits and they try that After that conversation, that is also coercion, that is being forced, that is doing something against your consent, even if it is in a committed relationship.

And I've had, I've had all of those things happen, actually, um, there have been very clear conversations where, um,  you know, we're trying to like  reconnect or figure out stuff, you know, and saying, okay, well, this is what I am okay with. I am not open to those things.  Every single thing that I said that I was not open to happened.

And the,  if it's happened to you, or if you know someone that's happened to, it's almost like you like freeze. Or I did and I didn't know how to respond and then the shame that you let that happen to you Even after you said that I wasn't going to allow this I I didn't I wasn't okay with this thing  That is sexual coercion and it is a form of sexual abuse.

That's not like in I had a conversation on my podcast with a woman that's going to be airing soon Who actually told me that?  It is, it is considered marital rape and that is, you can bring charges against a person in all 50 states. It is illegal. But again, like emotional abuse, it's in a gray area because We're just trained to assume that that's how men are that they're gonna push you and they're gonna be whiny or you know 

And the 

women are always gonna not to want to have sex but spoiler alert if you have good communication And you're actually listening to each other.

You're gonna have a better sex life  

Yeah, it's true and like I want to go back to something that you said because  I know that we hear a lot of, like, no means no, no is a complete sentence, and especially when it comes to, like, sex, right, where,  you know, if I say no, then that means no, don't ask me again, like, don't try to advance, or anything like that.

But it's not always  saying no, sometimes it's saying nothing,  and that also means no.  It's like, you don't know how to say no, so you're just saying it. You don't say anything and then they think it's okay and exactly. 

Yeah, you know, which is Again, that is an act of coercion if you haven't even if even if you didn't specifically say no A lot of the time if you are at the point where you haven't said no It's because you have learned that it's pointless to say no or to not say no that they're gonna keep pushing you regardless  Which again is the thing that?

You I learned, uh, my therapist and I actually talked about this  and I, I told her, she was asking me questions and I said, well, I just knew that it didn't matter if I said no. And she said, she said that she wanted me to think about that sentence again. I knew that it didn't matter if I said no, if he wanted to have sex that night, it was going to happen.

And if it didn't happen, he'd be pouty and like,  like huffing and rolling over. There was definitely a few times where I held my ground and. You know, it didn't happen. So I'm not saying that this was like every single encounter that I had but  No is a complete sentence but you also need to give yourself some grace if you don't say anything and let it happen because  I wouldn't even consider letting it happen so much as Being resigned to your fate almost it's um and  That,  I think a lot of shame comes with that, like a lot of shame for like, I, I should have just said no, but again, you get to the point where, what does it matter if you say no, if they're that determined, you know?

So, 

Right. 

It's definitely a subject that people need to talk about more, because it should not be normalized within relationships the way that it is now. Um, Consent. Can be taken away at any point in time. Even if you are in a relationship, it does not mean that you are automatically consenting to have sex with the other person and in a healthy relationship. 

If one party says, I'm not feeling it, that should be the end of the conversation. And I, I've heard from a lot of men who said that this made them uncomfortable. My article about sexual coercion and my posts about it.  That made them feel very uncomfortable because they know that they have exhibited some of that behavior a time or two and I'm not saying that there's never a time when one partner isn't like, you know, like really into it and it takes a little bit for them to figure out that their partner isn't.

In the mood, you know, but right  so I know that there there can be some gray area there but again Look at the pattern if you're if the overall  If the overall theme in that relationship is like mine I know that there's no point in me saying no.  That's, that's a problem.  That's not healthy.  

Right. No, I agree.

And I want to go back to you saying that like men have messaged you. Yeah.  Feeling uncomfortable. Cause I, like I said, When I read that I was like, this struck a nerve and it like, hit me so deeply because I have been in that position many times over. It's not just like one person because like it is very common because you're saying that men are messaging you because that's what they do.

Yeah, like that's what, it's normal. It is. It's normal. 

Yeah. 

And like, I had sent that, that article and the post and the reel to my husband. Ha ha ha! Good for you. Yeah, and okay, you might love this. We're actually going to have a chat, him and I, um, and we're going to talk about like your episode, your first episode.

I do. And I'm going to talk about like the reel and everything because I do want to talk about like, You know, relationships and marriage and being able to communicate those things. So that way it's, it's, it's not an abusive relationship because you're open to talking about. How you can be better. Exactly.

Yes. But so like when I sent him those things he also like had that ick feeling like yeah, like I've I've never Intended to make you feel that way and you know I'm, sorry, and that was really nice to hear An apology and I wasn't expecting an apology. It was just like here's some knowledge  

Yeah, 

like here's some resources and I think that it's really important for both men to know also that, you know,  that not like a silence doesn't mean yes.

And I think that we as a society are getting better and teaching our boys, our young boys, right, or our young children. That, you know, no means no, and if people say stop, that's stop, and if they look physically uncomfortable, like, reel it in, you know, like, they don't have to say anything. Exactly. If they look uncomfortable, just leave it be.

But you had also mentioned  that even with you saying no, like, you standing your ground, right, you saying no, like, and you're just, you know, this is it, and then they get pouty.  Right. And then it's like, how do you combat that guilt or shame? Cause you're saying that, yeah, you know, I,  I did say no, but also like now they're pissed off at me  

and I don't 

want them to be pissed off at me.

And like, what if their love language is touch? Like you're making them feel rejected. Because you don't want them, but also it's like, but this is about me and it's, it, it, it starts to feel like a very  Sticky 

situation. It does and one of my  One of my immediate trauma responses is to fawn so to fix everything and and make it better and I think that what you're describing exhibits a lot of fawning behavior because for a lot of people it's Their gut instinct is to make it better so that the other person isn't mad at them anymore I think an important thing is to again support yourself and really Reaffirm to yourself that there is nothing wrong with saying no like if we look at the way that we're teaching children now We are actively teaching our children that you don't have to hug someone if you don't want to Even if it is polite, even if it is their parent their grandparent, you don't have to hug someone You don't have to be affectionate with someone if you don't want to and if we can teach a child that  It's okay to respect your personal space, even if this is your spouse, even if this is your long term partner.

Even if their love language is touch, it still does not negate the fact that you do not want to be touched. And you can have a conversation with them the next day. It doesn't, because not all these situations are abusive, you know, like I know that that's kind of confusing, but if you have a conversation with your partner and you say,  Or even in the moment and you say I am  I I'm not in the mood for this right now.

I'm feeling very overstimulated I'm feeling over touched. I know that you may need physical affection to feel valued in this relationship What are some other ways that I can offer that to you besides being intimate in this moment? And they might not like it because if they want to have sex they want to have sex You know, but a respectful partner, like your husband, when you pointed it out, he immediately apologized even though you weren't expecting that, right?

You got an apology. And a respectful partner will  look at what you've said and  not pressure you. They will. You know, even if they're slightly like upset about not having sex or whatever,  they will think about it and you can figure out some other things or figure out a plan that you feel comfortable addressing it where, so that you don't have to be like, well,  I don't want you to be mad at me, this and that, but really.

Supporting your own needs and communicating those needs to your partner by saying, how else can I, can I give this to you? Can we spend some quality? Can we go for a walk together and hold hands? Like it may not be the exact form of intimacy that they are requesting, but you are not obligated to have sex at any point in time.

Even if they want to and so it can feel like you're being the bad guy by saying no, I don't want this  But you're really not you're honoring your own needs And again, if we could teach children small children that they do not have to hug that they do not have to do any of those Things if they don't want to grandma's coming over and you don't like it when grandma kisses your cheek Guess what?

You can say no. Thank you to grandma. Then we as adults are also allowed to do that to draw those boundaries and Deserve to be shown the respect of having them followed.  

I also feel that we as a society have a lot of work to do  because yes, like I am teaching my children that right now like You know, you don't have to have people hug you or give you a kiss.

Like I am come from a Mexican American family. And, you know, one of the things is like, you go and you hug and you give each person like a kiss on the cheek. And, you know, my daughter is not  really okay with that. Like, she's more like, you know, hi, she will hug people sometimes. It's mostly when she's more familiar with them.

Yes, but like you get a lot of pushback from family and friends, right? Also because the expectation already as a society is like you be polite 

Exactly. Yes, so it's really teaching herself not to be polite and to be firm, like, you know, uh, my daughters are very similar. My oldest daughter is just, she's not very physically affectionate.

She doesn't really like to be touched all that much and it's just a fact in the household. And sometimes my youngest daughter will want hugs. And my oldest will have to say, I don't want you to hug me right now. I love you, but I don't want to be touched. And that's kind of, that is becoming a more normalized conversation within my children.

And my youngest one, Just she's really she's very very shy. She does not she doesn't do a lot of people like it takes She doesn't open up very well. She doesn't like to talk to strangers and so for her she doesn't like to be hugged getting a hug from her is actually like a badge of honor and like everybody who Who's gotten to know her will will know that and so?

but she is okay with like a fist bump and she may hesitate and It's one of those things where I speak up for her and I just explain she's very shy You She'll warm up to you. Eventually, you'll get a fist bump, you know, things like that. but it's it is something that we have to work on as a society because  A lot of these things we're all just used to and if you think about it like  50 years ago It was normal for men to hit their wives  Like like in the in the 1950s, maybe that's longer in the 1950s  There were ads run about how men should spank their wives.

It was normal to mistreat your wives It was normal to be physically abusive. It was normal to be Emotionally abusive to them and now we're having these conversations that now we know that physical abuse is But we still have a lot of catching up to do with emotional abuse and sexual abuse.  

Right. Yeah, no, I agree.

And I think that's the perfect segue of like, how to, I guess, advocate for yourself and set some overall boundaries for, a healthy relationship and what does communication look like for that?  

Right. So, I think,  number one, you can't expect your partner to read your mind.  That's like, you can have these thoughts and these feelings and maybe these resentments, but if you are not,  Expressing that if you are not finding a way to communicate that to your partner, they're not gonna know  So I think that and more of an emphasis needs to be put on Communication within relationships because you do need to be able to talk these issues out.

You need to be able to say hey I don't feel like my needs are being met in XYZ  or it would really help me if you could support me I'm feeling vulnerable right now and I could use some support in this specific way instead of just saying like I'm having a really hard day and hoping that you will do the thing that they want you to do and it's not like  I think again there, there's a difference between  doing that in a hopeful way and in a controlling way. 

You know, so like  I, I think it takes both partners being willing to openly discuss how they are thinking and how they are feeling and what needs they have and both of you working together to move through it in a healthy relationship that is ideally what it should look like is very open talking about what you liked During sex, after sex, talk about it.

Like, I really liked when you did that thing. I'd like it if you do it again.  Things like that, that normally we are just kind of trained to not talk about, but if you are having these discussions, it opens the door to have  One's about harder topics, you know, like  you did this thing that really upset me And I'm feeling a certain kind of way about it and not wanting to like argue But really to like change that pattern of behavior so that you can move forward together um So yeah, I think that's probably the biggest thing for me within a healthy relationship is communication and learning how to communicate.

That also means learning each other's communication style, because not everybody is going to communicate or understand things exactly the same way. They're so learning the way that your partner expresses themselves and the way that your partner receives messages. Is again a big part of that because if you're with someone who specifically needs to be told,  um Or if you are with someone who is a little more sensitive and needs things, maybe not sugar coated, but just worded slightly differently, um, and, again, that takes work on both people's, um, sides. 

But that is how you get to the healthiest relationship, is by Talking about it all  um, but  again another thing. I mean, I know I already said this but I think it's important to highlight  You will not have that with an abuser. So An abuser you can say those things you can be as clear as you Can possibly be and what you need and how you're feeling and they will not care That is not not that their behavior will not change.

So  um  Working together is a sign that, of a healthy relationship, that it can  improve, that you guys can work through any rough patches together. An abusive relationship, there will be no change. It will be you expressing what you need over and over and over again, and your needs not being met. Oof.  

Yeah. No, I agree with all of that.

Like, you are so right. Like, Like, someone who is willing to talk about, like, what the issues in the relationship are is not someone who's, like, like, actively trying to hurt you or, like, show you abuse in any way. Yes. Um, and I think it all also lends to that we are all human and we're learning.  what to like throw away that society has taught us already that isn't working and then like what like is the new like unlearning and relearning right?

Exactly and you'll have to do some level of that if you're changing partners if you're dating someone new because what worked in a one relationship might not work in the next one and you know it it is a matter of  learning to understand each other on a deeper human level instead of just being like, all right, well, this is how, this is how it is.

This is how it's always been. This is how it's going to stay. Hmm.  No, something should change. 

Right. Right. 

Yeah. 

So  I know that this was a lot of information that we just gave and that there's a lot of, like, signs to look out for and for the people  who are already in relationships where they're starting to recognize that  the patterns of behavior aren't typical of a healthy relationship.

That they are, you know, indicative of abuse. Like, what resources  Can you point to for them and I I actually heard a statistic That it takes  seven times  For someone to leave  before To leave an abuser before they're gone for good. So are there any resources that like  You know, maybe they're in the second cycle  of that like so that way they don't have to get to the seventh time like how can they start to like recognize like Oh, you know, this is actually a pattern and I need support  Both to get out of this and to like cope with any trauma.

Yes. Yes So the first one again is educating yourself on what it is. Um, pinterest and tiktok have been Hmm  Enormously helpful to me. Um, because  I, uh, again, I just, I didn't, I wasn't seeing the right information. I didn't know what to look for. And I would see these videos on TikTok that were talking about abuse, narcissistic abuse in, in my case specifically.

And I was like, well, hang on now, that sounds like me. And so it's finding those moments of like, if you are seeing something on social media, on. Pinterest, uh, there's even videos on YouTube that are super helpful. If you have found something that you're like, that seems familiar to me,  search it up. Go to Pinterest, type in that phrase.

I learned so much about  Abuse from being exposed to it on tik tok and by this point I was well versed in trauma  I had an active shadow work practice. I was working with clients to like help them work through their traumas I had a ptsd diagnosis. I knew all of these things about myself But I didn't have the right terminology to fully understand what it was.

So Educating yourself on what you are going through if you're experiencing if you think you might be Experiencing gaslighting, but you're not quite sure Go to Pinterest, go to TikTok, because that was like a buzzword for a while, too, wasn't it? Like, oh, stop gaslighting me, you're gaslighting me.  It's not just a trendy buzzword, it's an actual phenomenon, and it's severely psychologically damaging to the people who have experienced it.

So. Educating yourself, but then in terms of finding support,  it can be difficult. If you are being abused, it can be really, really, really hard to go to people that and be like, this is what's happening for me. In my case, it just like  shit blew up in a big way. And I had like no choice other than to be like, Hey, so this crazy thing just happened.

Um, I might need some help with this, but starting to let people know.  What you're going through, um, and I, if I didn't have such an insane,  like, these, like, giant, life changing events, if I didn't go through those, I probably,  I don't even know how I would have brought it up to people that I, like, my family or my friends, um,  In the first episode of my podcast, Shannon, the Tara diagnosis has some really great tips on what you can do, but I found a lot of comfort in my online communities and that is where I was able to find support because at that time I had a page.

Um, I've changed my username now, but I was known as the village Tara, which, and I was. I was working through my trauma with my tarot cards and I was just kind of talking about my journey and I made some really close connections along the way and those people I was able to turn to and say,  I'm really unhappy. 

I feel like these things are. You know, in kind of get support in that way. Um,  there's also online support groups that you can find. There's Facebook groups. There's some that are the private ones. So you can't see who's in it. Um, again, therapy, if you can't afford a therapist, then looking for  empathetic people who will listen to you and support you.

Um, But then the other thing about that is,  if you've been abused  for any length of time, it,  leaving can almost feel impossible or scarier than staying with your abuser, because it's kind of like that thing of like,  The way that you're living is uncomfortable and unhappy, but it's also you're also used to it So it's almost like living with your on living with your known even if it's bad is less scary than going out into the unknown  Like the fool card could seem terrifying, you know, cuz it's like standing out on a cliff.

What's at the bottom of that cliff? I don't know, you know, so yeah, I think if you have tried to leave And have been unsuccessful if you've tried to leave and you've come back to your abuser really show yourself some grace and because it is It is difficult and you are put into the Place where you feel like you have to rely on them financially Emotionally, whatever way again, it's a power dynamic.

They want to be in control of you. They want you to need them, right? um So educating yourself You Finding healthy support systems, show yourself grace, and also make a plan. Because, even if it's not like an escape plan, but  look at apartments, look at townhouses, um, look at, look at places you could go, look at jobs that you could hold.

Sorry, my dog's barking out there. You're good, you're fine. Um, it,  it takes a little bit to like, Teach yourself that there is a good life outside of the abuse that you've been living under because again That's your normal. So imagining a different life can be really challenging and that is one of the reasons it takes  It's hard to leave It's scary to leave.

It's not like there might be moments of where you're like blissful freedom But just the act of telling someone that you're done You is scary and in physically abusive but also emotionally abusive relationships, one of the most dangerous times is when someone is leaving. Things really start to escalate, they start to do anything and everything they can to get you to stay, and it is hard to, Stand up against that.

So making sure that you have safe people that you can talk to, even if it doesn't look like your traditional, let's go out for coffee, you can talk to people online. My inbox is always open. Um,  there are safe people on the internet who are more than willing to help. I know that there are also organizations.

So if you were in a truly dangerous.  There are women's shelters specifically set up. They will not tell the person you're leaving where you are and they will help you find resources to get back up on your feet. And those are phone numbers that you can call. Um, there's a national abuse hotline  that, um, it, it'll have a thing.

There's like an emergency exit button. And, um, I link that in all my podcast episodes, but  so that you can, if you're looking at it and you're reading resources about abuse and your partner comes in the room, you can click it and it disappears, right? So it's, um,  it, it's just making,  it's giving you a safety net is the biggest part of, um, getting yourself out, giving yourself the knowledge that you need and giving yourself a safety net and understanding that  it is hard and it is scary, even if it's.

quote, only emotional abuse. It doesn't make it any less frightening. Uh, your brain can't actually tell the difference between a physical threat and an emotional threat. So, on some level,  um, as you were preparing,  You feel the threat the same is what is what I'm meaning. Um, The the danger is still there your mind perceives it and so, uh honor  honor that part of you and do what you need to do to Get out safely, even if it means Like leaving during the day and sending a text message and blocking their number like if you're able to do that  like if there's no kids involved or anything like that like  You don't have to give them that one final conversation.

You don't have to sit through another, I'm gonna change, I promise. They're not gonna change. They would have already if they were genuine.  

Great. And you actually offer, like,  I guess you're a resource in yourself. Like, you offer, uh, conversations on your podcast. What is it? What lies buried? Right? Did I say that?

You did, yeah. So, can you 

tell me about your, like, about your podcast and how you're actually, like, talking to real, like, people of, like, who have had, who have experienced,  you know, emotional abuse?  

Yeah, so I,  I really wanted this to be a safe space for abuse victims, um, and, um, so I And it really came out and just like, I wrote a short story that is featured in an anthology called Six Troubles, Seven Sins.

Um, and I wrote about,  it's kind of like a combination, but I, I wrote about some of the things that I experienced trying to leave my abusive relationship. Um, and, but I fictionalized it because that's how I felt safe expressing those things. So like,  Most of everything in that short story really happened to me.

I just kind of, I faked the ending and I changed names and there's a few details that I swapped around, you know, but like, it's mostly my story for real. And that's the only reason that I started talking about this is I was like, I was promoting this anthology and I didn't realize how much I needed to talk about it.

And as soon as I,  as soon as I got that feeling off of my chest, I realized that we need.  A space for people who have experienced abuse to  Tell their stories  as much as they want and in doing that I give all of my guests the opportunity to remain anonymous  So I've had some guests who want to go by their name, but they don't use their abuser's name I've had some guests be completely anonymous and I've had some who use their name and their abuser's name.

So 

I'm like you are so brave  Um, but  It is a space that is designed to meet your comfort level wherever it's at because like when I fictionalized my story  I have I have reasons for that. Currently, there's still like legal issues. There's still legal stuff being resolved  But I felt unsafe. I felt like I can't put this story out As nonfiction.

So I fictionalized it and there really needs to be a space where people can just talk about what they've experienced.  And.  In doing so, it gives room for other people who have experienced abuse or for people who love someone who has gone through emotional abuse to kind of understand some of what they may have gone through.

Um, so it's,  what I've heard in feedback so far, it's still, it's still very new, it's my little baby, but the feedback that I've heard so far from the victims have said that it, It feels so validating. And he said, I know that this is my story and I'm the one telling it, but hearing it back feels like they're hearing somebody else and it just kind of gives them that feeling of  this really did happen.

Um,  and on the flip side, I've heard from lots of people who listened to the episode and they're like, That happened to me, and I didn't realize that that was a thing until afterwards. So, my goal is to give  victims a safe space to share whatever they feel comfortable sharing, and also to educate, because again, the more that we tell these stories, the more that we talk about it, the more we normalize having these discussions. 

We'll see that pattern start to stop, hopefully, just like we did with physical abuse being okay. Now, nobody stands by physical abuser, but there are still a lot of  excuses that are made for emotional abusers. Like, well, they didn't mean it like that. They were just having a hard time.  It really doesn't matter if they didn't mean it like that.

If they were going through a hard time, abuse is abuse and there needs to be more spaces where we can support victims. and allow them to safely share their stories  

Oh, thank you so much carly for coming on like all of that is  like invaluable information and I know that the audience is gonna like really have some takeaways and probably a lot of like deep thinking like the way that people have already messaged you.

I'm like, am I the abuser?  They have to really like think about like their patterns and their partner's patterns and like, like you said, it's not all intentional. And so like  Really  kind of give your relationship that respect right for one another. Yes  Just making it healthy 

Exactly and real respectful partnerships.

You will grow together. You will work through challenges together You will not have that with an abusive relationship Just period they're not going to change They're not going to even it there might be like a love bombing phase where it seems like it But if they've gone back to the same pattern of behavior within days or weeks You  You're not gonna save it.

Move.  Leave now. 

Well, thank you again, Carly, for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Yes, thank you so much.  What an incredible conversation with Carly.  I I  was so blown away  in my first reading over of her coercion essay,  and  I immediately was like, oh, I have to have this conversation with her. It is so important. And I have been following Carly since she was the village tarot witch. 

Just seeing her story evolve and what she has been so brave to come forward in, I just, I'm so glad that I could bring this conversation to you. So if you can do us both a favor, go and visit at Blissfully Bold Podcast on Instagram and comment on  this week's episode.  for episode 17 and tell us what your takeaway was because I know that there had to be some aha moments.

All right, well, thank you for joining me and if you haven't already, go and check out Buy Me A Coffee. You'll see that I added something extra on there and I am so excited. I'm so excited about the premium podcast for the Blissfully Bold podcast being live!  It's live, guys. So the podcast  premium, this is called Bold and Unfiltered.

And these are basically like short, quick notes, Q& As  for each episode.  Just kind of off the cuff things. Like, I was editing through some of them, and I was like, I, I am savage. I texted my friend, and  I didn't realize. Sometimes I come off a little strong, but my heart is in a good place and I know that you guys will see that once you listen to the premium podcast subscription.

So DM me if you have questions about it or you can go and visit the buy me a coffee link. It's going to be in the show notes. All right. Toodles y'all.